Breaking Barriers in Mental Health: How Psychedelic Therapy Can Reduce Human Suffering

Sherry Rais 2:30

Yeah, well, I got into this field because I think my journey in general, in life has been shaped by a lifelong commitment, as you mentioned, to reducing human suffering. I am very pained when I see suffering, and so I spent a decade working on poverty reduction and lived in some of the world’s poorest countries and helped create programs with the goal of reducing poverty. And after doing that for a decade, I really saw firsthand the interconnectedness between poverty reduction and mental health and that you really can’t, you can’t really eradicate poverty without addressing mental health. You can reduce it, and you can make a lot of improvements, and you can give people money and build schools and give them better access to primary health care, and, you know, provide access to technology. There’s a lot of things you can do, but what I saw firsthand is that that will help a lot of people, but there’s a huge part of the population that won’t be helped because they are living with so much trauma, depression and anxiety. And actually, to kind of like illustrate that a little bit further, not to go too much, too much into like a rabbit hole, the the occurrence of depression and anxiety in low income countries is like more than double than in high income countries. So there really is a big gap, and that’s what I was confronted with first hand. And so I started to look for solutions for mental health because of the work I was doing, and saw how broken our mental health system is and the traditional approaches are, and I stumbled upon the data around ketamine assisted therapy and psychedelic assisted therapy, and that’s what really got me into this field, seeing that there are tools that have the power to breakthrough where so many conventional treatments have failed, bringing rapid, profound healing to people that I seen suffering for years. And so it just didn’t make sense to me that these. Incredible, innovative treatments are not easily accessible, and they’re not affordable. And so yeah, that’s kind of what got me into the field

Dr. Sandy Newes 5:10

that’s interesting. This is another rabbit hole, and then I’ll kind of come back more. But I mean, as as you, or some of you all might know, we’re living in a disaster zone here in Asheville, North Carolina, and I am actually in an interesting bubble near the downtown area that has somewhat returned to to normal, like I’m on a kind of a spotty internet and, you know, we don’t have potable water, but really that’s just an inconvenience, because that in the surrounding communities, it’s still flattened, and there are people, you know, living in tents on the foundations and and what I’m noticing is the efforts to try to help with economic, you know, getting people back on their feet economically, all require a lot of wherewithal, like a high level of executive functioning, like you’ve got to get on the computer and you’ve got to, you’ve got to be motivated and on harder days where you’re, you know, sad or anxious or overwhelmed, it’s much harder to access that. So I’m kind of relating to what you’re saying in real time, that the people who are struggling the most with mental health issues are the ones that are going to be the least likely to be able to access the aid that’s available to them and and be able to utilize it because they’re just utterly demoralized. And I I’m seeing that in real time, like, you know, yesterday, like this is very much happening in my own community, so I can really appreciate what you just said there.

Sherry Rais 6:28

Yeah, actually, after a natural disaster, and I’m so sorry that, you know, you’ve had to go through this, and so many other people have been suffering after this hurricane in the US, we don’t talk a lot actually. We talk about like rebuilding and infrastructure and how to get the homes back and Internet back, but it’s really difficult to get back into things because of the psychological effects that you’re seeing from natural disasters. I could be wrong on this statistic, so fact check me please. But I’m pretty sure, I’m pretty sure that somewhere between 40 to 50% of people I did some natural disaster work as well will have some form of psychological distress after the disaster, which is really high. We could probably look at like what happened after Katrina as an example. But there’s so much trauma that that we don’t actually talk about addressing we again, we focus on rebuilding homes and rebuilding infrastructure, but we don’t think about the long term trauma from these natural disasters. And yeah, right, yeah, because what’s

Dr. Sandy Newes 7:41

happened here in Asheville is an eradication of culture, because these are rural communities that have lived in these on these lands and in these mountains and on these rivers for a really, really, really long time. And you know, it’s not just like buildings destroyed, it’s like, it’s environmental destruction on an epic scale, and we could spend the whole time on that. But what I where I’m going with that, that I think is really interesting is what is also happening here is a massive civilian effort where communities are coming together and offering support. And what I know as a trauma person is that, you know, feeling a sense of community and belonging can be one of the things that can really mitigate a trauma response, and so kind of it’ll be interesting to kind of track that and really pay attention to that, which really brings me back to psychedelics, because we’re all kind of in community around this, and that’s really One of the profound effects I think, of psychedelic work is that it that helps people more access community. It’s not just about individual self exploration. And so how can we, you know, do this well, and in community is one of the things that I’m super interested in. So, so, yeah, you kind of said that you worked in many countries and many leaders in different contexts. So, you know, really, that kind of brings us again into that, that community piece, from village chiefs to prime ministers, and seeing how communities find this, work with poverty and working with trauma, and I’m just curious how that’s influenced who you are in the world, like that’s a lot a lot a lot of different contexts and a lot of different domains and a lot of different countries and a lot of different social and political systems. So I’m just curious how that’s influenced you.

Sherry Rais 9:31

Yeah, I think working with a wide range of people, leaders from grassroots community organizations to, you know national policy makers has definitely shaped the way I engage with the world. One of the key lessons I think I’ve learned is that no matter the scale, whether you’re dealing with a village chief focusing on local issues or the Minister of Health trying to navigate national challenges. Is the underlying human need is very much the same. So I see like, what success and for me, that goes back to this desire to alleviate suffering and improve human and improve quality of life. That’s kind of that doesn’t change no matter who you’re dealing with. There’s this desire to, hopefully, if you’re unless you’re dealing with bad actors, but if you’re dealing with good actors, then there’s this, um, this desire to, honestly, I might get in trouble for saying this, but even sometimes when you’re dealing with bad actors, I see the good in people. And I think there’s still an some The reason they’re in that line of work is hopefully because maybe there’s some power, you know, reasons and things like that, but there’s also a desire to help people, at least I, I like to believe that, and that the diversity of those experiences, for me, has given a deep sense of empathy, and I think the ability to listen to what’s not always said in global work, especially, I think you sort of have to read between lines, whether or maybe it’s just policy work and government work, but whether it’s like understanding, you Know, the unspoken struggles of a marginalized community, or navigating the delicate political dynamics within a government? Yeah, I think I’ve, I’ve just learned to be attuned to these subtle, more complex layers of human experience, and that translates directly into my work with psychedelic therapy as well, right? 

Dr. Sandy Newes 11:44

Well, it’s interesting, because power dynamics are such a, you know, so at play. And I think as the field evolves, it’s going to be so important that people continue to talk about that, you know, from, you know, clients or participants being, you know, abused or taken advantage of, into just general power structures around money and finances and access. So, yeah, I mean, I very much appreciate you bringing that up. You keep mentioning, you know, reducing human suffering as kind of being your North Star, what ultimately drives your compass. And you’ve, you’ve said that a lot, just even in this time, and I’ve heard you say that before, I’m wondering if there’s anything else that you want to say about that, or if we’ve kind of covered it, and just, you know, it seems like that’s really driven all of

Sherry Rais 12:33

your efforts. Yeah, what I I don’t want to, you know, I’ve already talked about it

Dr. Sandy Newes 12:42

a few times. There’s plenty of reducing human suffering.

Sherry Rais 12:48

Yeah, so I think there are different types of suffering. There’s physical, there’s mental, there’s financial, there’s emotional, there’s even spiritual suffering, and my desire is for us to live in a world where that suffering is reduced as much as possible. I know that there’s a reason we’re here on this earth not to get too esoteric, and probably some suffering is needed, again, a conversation for maybe a different day or different podcasts. But in as much as I can help reduce any form of those types of suffering for people and create systems and processes that make that scalable. That’s definitely how I want to spend my time. I think, I think, if we all pay attention to, like the voice inside us, or, you know what we’re drawn to, people have different, different reasons for living, let’s say, or different North Stars, and that’s just been a clear one for me since childhood. And that doesn’t necessarily have to be the same for everyone, but you know, we’re all impacted by our life experiences. And for me, being the daughter of immigrants and growing up in a no, okay, middle class family, we weren’t we weren’t struggling to make ends meet, but we weren’t living a incredibly lavish lifestyle. I was just very aware of how lucky I was to be born in Canada, and how different life might have been had my parents not immigrated to Canada, um, and so where did they immigrate from?

Dr. Sandy Newes 14:51

I know a lot of my

Sherry Rais 14:52

mom, but yeah, my mom is from Tanzania, and my dad is from Pakistan. So, um. Um, yeah, it that had a huge impact on me, and especially like traveling, also as when I was younger, you know, going back to Pakistan with my family and seeing how people lived there also made me really aware that I was extremely privileged. And, you know, if I can spend my life trying to even the playing field, that would be a life well lived for me. So just kind of goes back, yeah,

Dr. Sandy Newes 15:25

I love that. I can’t help but kind of have grabbed hold of that sentence that you said, people, maybe people do need some suffering and, well, that would be a whole separate podcast. But I’m like, I’m just dying to know, what are you thinking about that? Because that’s a super interesting thing. And I get that we could spend hours on that and,

Sherry Rais 15:44

and I’m just, you know what? Yeah, so I think that one, and this is not my, you know, area of expertise, it’s just my own thoughts that it

Dr. Sandy Newes 15:58

seems to really inform what we’re talking about, right? That, like, you know, kind of alleviating suffering and power dynamics and so I’m just curious,

Sherry Rais 16:05

yeah, so I think one, if we were to, let me put it like this, I think that a lot of people chase happiness, like chase this constant state of happiness. And I don’t, I don’t happiness is sort of like an an outcome, but not, not the goal. Like, if, if you’re, I don’t think we’re supposed to be in a constant state of happiness or in constant state of bliss, right? And if we’re living our lives mindfully and with intention and with purpose, we will end up being probably happier more times than we’re not, because we have some sort of purpose. And for the purpose doesn’t have to be the same for everyone to be clear like but if you’re just chasing happiness, and if you’re just chasing feeling good all the time, I don’t think that’s very sustainable. That’s just again, just my opinion. But even going back to psych, tying this more to psychedelic therapy, you know, psychedelic therapy is also not meant to be just a great time or just a super positive experience, like it’s the outcome. The outcome is you get somewhere where you are feeling whole and connected, and yes, an outcome of happiness, but it’s hard work, and there is suffering in the psychedelic therapeutic process, right? Like it, there’s places where it is dark and difficult, and for listeners to this podcast who haven’t, you know, experienced it, this might I’m not trying to scare anyone.

Dr. Sandy Newes 17:57

I mean, you know it’s true. It’s 100% true. Like if you’re doing a therapeutic process with psychedelics, like it’s a safe bet that it’s not going to be all awesome, just the same as with traditional psychotherapy, like it’s we have to go through the hard stuff to get to the other side. And doesn’t mean and I think that’s the difference. Like, the goal is to not get stuck in it, but rather to learn from it, to be able to understand it, to heal it, to compartmentalize it at times like we don’t change our life experience, our life trajectory, but we can find ways to sort of discharge it like, where it’s not kind of ruling the charge

Sherry Rais 18:34

with us. Yeah, yeah. And I think one more thing I’ll add Sandy is that I think you’ll agree that, you know, suffering and discomfort is pretty essential in growth and transformation, like both in psychedelic therapy and broadly in life, it’s critical to growth transformation, understanding it shapes how we navigate the world. Yeah, it’s often, I think, a catalyst for change. When we when we encounter hardship, we’re to reevaluate our lives and our values and our priorities. Sometimes that’s how we discover our strength and our capacity for empathy. So that’s kind of what I mean by like, could be another podcast, be something we talk about all day. But like, some suffering is, is it’s an inevitable part of the human experience, right?

Dr. Sandy Newes 19:32

And I see that too, like with clients that I work with, this avoidance of suffering, and like, one of the teachings that I offer is, you know, happiness is a learned skill, like discomfort and distress, is biological. It’s actually drawing our awareness to things you know that could kill us or eat us, right? Because our brains are still kind of in a place where there are predators lurking about who really are trying to kill us or eat us. So drawing our awareness to that is a survival mechanism. So. In the modern world, being able to actually have a skill set that supports happiness while recognizing that suffering is inevitable, I think, is really super important, and it’s a major part of mental health recovery and expansion. So it plays itself out in psychedelics, but also just in life. I’m living that in real time here in Asheville, like, you know, grateful to have a roof overhead and, you know, deeply grieving, you know, what is happening in the ecosystem. So it’s just an interesting thing to kind of play with. So I appreciate you bringing that up. And then I wanted to just kind of, you know, it seems like you’re very mission driven. I mean, you say that very openly, and you’ve said that to me and and then I also want to, you know, talk about enthya and what you’re doing. So I’m curious, first, kind of, how those things link together. And then tell me about Enthea. That seems like that’s your, you know, current mission driven project to alleviate human suffering, and it just seems so in alignment with everything that you’re talking about, that I just really appreciate that. So, so,

Sherry Rais 21:08

yeah, yeah. So, um, essentially, Enthea, Enthea mission is very tied to reducing suffering, and it focuses specifically on making innovative mental health treatments accessible and affordable, with huge emphasis on safety. And if we think about the fact that every 40 seconds, someone in their in the world loses their life to suicide and yet, ketamine, yeah, yeah, soup, very sad. And then on the backdrop of that, ketamine is like the only medicine known to reduce suicidal ideation within hours, even more so than traditional psychedelics. And yet, there’s so much stigma around ketamine. It’s not covered by traditional insurance. People have to pay out of pocket. Globally, most people wouldn’t know how to access it, like even within the US. But then globally, it gets worse, although I did hear about a hospital in Kenya that was offering ketamine therapy, which I thought was cool.

Dr. Sandy Newes 22:29

Oh, that’s so interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Sherry Rais 22:34

And not to say, like, you know, other countries aren’t doing it. I’m you know, but I do see the need for doing this in low income countries as well. Like, I don’t want to just focus on the US, but yeah, going back to Enthea. So we have these medicines that we know are effective, they’re evidence based, they’re safe, and yet access is this huge barrier. And so the idea of NTS to solve that problem and remove that barrier for people, and right now, we’re doing that by trying to channel employer funding into benefits that cover these treatments, so creating benefit plans that cover these treatments and increasing safety By vetting providers of these treatments like ketamine therapy providers, so people know who to go to for good quality care, and tying that to, you know, medical policies and standards of care that ensure patient safety, with the ultimate goal being that there would be a domino effect that as more people start getting ketamine therapy, for example, through their employer, more people start talking about it, and it becomes the norm. Yeah, so you

Dr. Sandy Newes 23:52

through getting employers to sign on with Enthea, is that correct, that they then provide a benefit to their employees to be able to access ketamine assisted psychotherapy, which is right now, is our only legal psychedelic, except in a couple states where it’s, you know, kind of psilocybin is currently emerging that then you are hoping to not only increase access, but also to decrease the barrier around stigma and secrecy, and I’m going to just add in shame and embarrassment for people to access this really effective medicine within the hope that that kind of that tide rises. Other is that, is that accurate?

Sherry Rais 24:37

That is 100% accurate. Yes, awesome.

Dr. Sandy Newes 24:40

I love that. And how’s it going? How’s it working? Like, how, how is, how is it happening for you at Enthea, like, I’ve been watching and cheering you all on, and, you know, I’m just curious, what are you what are your thoughts about kind of, where things stand for that, and where you’d like for it to go?

Sherry Rais 24:56

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks for cheering us on. Yeah. It’s, it’s going well, it is not always easy convincing companies, even though there’s all this data and there’s all this evidence and there’s even like, great, there’s a huge business advantage to employers for offering this. There’s like, like, a business case in terms of, you know, ROI on increased productivity and reduced absenteeism and lower health care spend. There’s all of this data, and yet it’s not easy to convince employers that they should offer something new, that they should be an innovator, that, you know, they should do something that most companies are not doing, and sort of lead the way. And so it’s going well. We have grown from 500 covered lives to over 150,000 in the past year. So really happy about that, and that’s

Dr. Sandy Newes 26:02

huge. And that’s like a real high growth trajectory. That’s a lot of people you’re influencing. Because I always think about it like a multi generational influence, right? It’s not just the patient themselves or the client themselves.

Sherry Rais 26:13

It’s going to talk to the family, yeah, they’re going to talk to everyone about it, yeah. So that’s that’s been a lot of growth, and huge thanks to the whole Enthea team for making that possible. And we have grown our provider network as well, so we have nationwide coverage and providers in every state. We have also diversified and are starting to offer other treatments besides ketamine assisted therapy. So looking at other mental health treatments that are not covered by traditional insurance, like um, spell, like ganglion block, TMS, um, we’re looking to cover psilocybin, like you mentioned in states, like organ um, so great news on that front. And then we’ve just seen really great patient outcomes, like an 86% reduction in PTSD, a 67% reduction in anxiety, sorry, 67 Yeah, percent reduction in anxiety and 65% reduction in depression. So, yes, all great. And I guess the but is, like, given my drive and vision for India, like, I’m like, I want to help more people and more people and more people. Like, you know, how can we get that 150,000 to like, you know, 1 million. Once we get to 1 million, I’ll be like, how can we get it to 2 million? So they’re, you know, I’m always thinking about, how can, how can we do more? I love that, and

Dr. Sandy Newes 27:45

I appreciate that, and I’m happy to spread the word, because I think it’s really, really important. One of the things that you mentioned is getting, you know, getting part of the mission of Enthea too, is linking together, you know, employers, and then, you know, potential clients who are working with the employer with good clinics, and so kind of serving a role is kind of a little bit of a, like a vetting too, like, you know, I will kind of vet the clinics and and create partnerships between these with those that that we consider to be providing good service. Is that that was kind of what that was the is it accurate?

Sherry Rais 27:46

That is completely accurate. And I think that’s such an important piece that I don’t talk about often enough, you know, like on podcasts or things like this, but our provider network is really important to us, so we do serve this role of vetting. So for the employer, for the patient, they can trust that when they’re seeing an Enthea vetted or credentialed in network provider, they’re getting quality care. It’s not like some shady ketamine clinic that opened last week that isn’t properly licensed. So there’s that aspect of it which is really important for the patient, ultimately, but also for the provider. This is, I think, a really important service of one. We know that in the behavioral health industry, providers have not been treated fairly by traditional insurance. They haven’t gotten reimbursed at appropriate rates or at an appropriate time span, or it’s very complicated to get reimbursed, and so we’re trying to pave the way to set a different standard where we are compensating providers the way they should be compensated, and compensating them timely, making it easy for them and incentivizing them like to work with, you know, quote, unquote, insurance or plans like in via so that we solve for this problem of access, because that is a huge issue. If providers don’t want to work with insurance or don’t want to work with plans, then, you know, that’s. What leads to this access issue as well, and then also, also for the providers, hopefully we are helping them drive we’re driving business to them, right? So we’re bringing patients in the door, which I think is really important, especially as you know, there’s been a lot of shifts in the psychedelic industry, and it’s not necessarily easy to to survive in it, unfortunately. So hopefully we can help be part of that solution for providers well. 

Dr. Sandy Newes 30:33

And how do you you know, as as a person who you know, co founded a training and content company, living Medicine Institute. I’m obviously also really curious just about, you know, what do you see, the role of training in all of that, and then kind of related to that, how can we, you know, we in a training role, or we in kind of a, you know, a role of influencing or participating in this field, really, you know, continue to kind of help move the field in, you know, ways with integrity and what makes a good psychedelic organization. Um, yeah, you know, how, what, what’s the role of training, what makes a good provider? And then, you know, how can we help with that, or participate in that

Sherry Rais 31:22

well not to throw the question back at you, which I know probably isn’t good practice, if you’ll humor me, I would love to hear like you’ve built a training program. So I would love to hear, and from what I can tell, a fantastic one. And so I would love to hear your answer to your own question for this one. Sandy, Oh, funny, okay,

Dr. Sandy Newes 31:48

well, all right, then. I mean, first and foremost, you know, people, we only work with licensed providers. And so we anticipate, you know, we work with, let with clinical and medical professionals. So, you know, speaking specifically to the therapist side, the psychotherapy side, is that we anticipate that people are going to be good therapists and good providers first, and so that’s really important. Second is that it’s not just the medicine that we understand that the medicine is a piece of a therapeutic process, and that’s fundamentally different than the use of psychedelics for spiritual growth or for recreation. You know, recreation can be therapeutic, but it’s not therapy. And so you know that the medicine is embedded within a therapeutic process, and that you know that the training be about the both, and that it’s about, how do we apply our clinical and therapeutic skills in preparation and helping the client access the medicine in a way that is in alignment with their treatment goals? And then integration. And then how do we work the integration piece, because the field, really, in my opinion, over emphasizes the medicine. The medicine is a very powerful tool. But, you know, it’s like ketamine assisted psychotherapy or psychedelic assisted psychotherapy versus just the medicine alone is like meat and fruit. I mean, you can eat them both, but they’re nothing alike. Really, they’re not the same. And so, you know, really, we have a lot of influence over our clients, and there’s a lot of opportunity to do that wrong. There’s a tremendous amount of trust they’re putting into us so that, you know, high level of attention to creating an effective therapeutic container, I think, is just of critical importance. So now, what do you think? Yeah,

Sherry Rais 33:43

I really agree with you. I’m so glad I asked her to answer that question. So you did a great, great job. Yeah, I don’t I don’t know if I have anything more to add. I completely agree on like we have the data to show that the medicine without the therapy, just simply isn’t as effective. It’s not that it doesn’t do anything, but right, you said immediate food. It’s just it’s you need both, or you need some approach.

Dr. Sandy Newes 34:18

But yes, the application piece, you know, like, we can teach forever about, like, what ketamine does to the brain and all of that stuff, but, and there’s nothing wrong with that. That is great, and having an understanding of the research is super important. And I love that, and that’s still not clinical application. So I think we in the training business really need to be focusing on, you know, how do we actually treat clients and patients effectively for the issues with which they came in they’re presenting issues so,

Sherry Rais 34:50

so I, you know, kind of go ahead and I was just going to add to that, that I think, and this is like an area where I know others are trying to add. To in this field, like what we do need in the psychedelic space is a functioning accreditation or credentialing board or certification board for practitioners, right? And something that keeps people accountable and also keeps people up to date on these skills. So we unfortunately don’t have that in a functioning way today. I know people are working on this, and I’m looking forward to the day where, you know, just like with other fields of medicine, there is a certification board. Yeah.

Dr. Sandy Newes 35:36

I mean, it’s, it’s essential, and so I love that you brought that up. So last question I’m aware of the time you know, either one thing that you’d like to share about yourself or Enthea that we might not have covered, or one thing that you’d really like to put out there as important for the field, you know, to really hold and maybe they’re the same.

Sherry Rais 36:04

Yeah, I think that what’s important for the field that I don’t think will come as surprise to to your listeners, will be really spreading awareness and taking time to sort of live in alignment with our beliefs. I don’t mean to sound preachy. That does sound very preachy, my apologies, but I think

Dr. Sandy Newes 36:38

it’s just a statement. Um, know, um,

Sherry Rais 36:41

it’s, and that’s like, you know, I, I tell this advice to myself too, but, um, I think it’s really easy to get caught up in this field, you know, even again, even me, like being all about the mission, going back to all about reducing suffering and then forgetting in the everyday, little moments in life, like what that looks like. So, you know, checking in with the people that you love and the people that you work with, and like your friends and colleagues and family members, to see, like, how are they doing? How are they doing post hurricane, how are they doing post baby? How are they doing post job loss, or just how are they doing generally. So this is, like, a little bit broader than in the but I, people are suffering, and we don’t talk about it. And even when we work in mental health, we sometimes don’t talk about it because we’re so busy working and so, so I, yeah, I I’m constantly reminding myself to take that time, and sometimes I forget. But that’s one thing I want to leave this with, is like we can all do better, checking in with each other and caring for each other, then maybe that’ll lead to a happier, healthier world. And then, of course, on the Enthea side, I will say, for anyone listening, you know, if there’s like even someone you can remotely think of, or some small chance that you think your organization or a friend’s organization might be interested in offering this benefit to its employees, whether it’s a company with five employees or 5000 employees, it really doesn’t matter. We can work with companies of all sizes, and the only way we’re going to have a shift in the way we see these treatments is if they become more accessible and become more normal. So if anyone knows anyone that might be interested, then please feel free to go on the Enthea website and reach out to us, or just contact me directly at share@enthea.com even you know happy to have a conversation and benefits, just a conversation, awesome.

Dr. Sandy Newes 38:50

Well, thank you so so much. This has been a really great conversation. I’m really grateful to you for agreeing to be on it and for doing that with me, and I love the way that you’re approaching this work, and I’m happy to help promote that and cheerlead you. And I’m just really grateful. So thank you so so much. Sherry, thanks,

Sherry Rais 39:12

Sandy, thank you a lot.

Outro 39:16

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