Exploring Psychedelic Sobriety With Dr. Rick Barnett

Dr. Rick Barnett 15:31

Yeah, in general, I’m really excited about the progress and the growth in that area from from a it’s important to make the distinction between clinical and non clinical. So I was part of this psychedelic therapy advisory group in here in Vermont that was a state legislative group, legislated group. So there was a bill called act 126 where the state legislature here in Vermont wanted an appointed group to look at the research on the therapeutic use of psychedelics and make recommendations back to the legislature. Now this was a group that was comprised of the Commissioner of Health, Dr.Mark Levine, MD, the medical director for the Department of Mental Health, psychiatrist, Dr.Kelly Klein. Had someone from the Vermont Medical Society. We had someone from the State Medical Board. We had a lot of medical, medical medical people, and it was a group that was specifically the psychedelic therapy advisory group, looking at the therapeutic use of psychedelics. So within a clinical model, when we’re talking about people who are struggling with diagnosable mental health conditions, and they’re looking for help, and we’re plugging that clinical, modern diagnostic system, Problem identification, codification process, we’re applying psychedelic therapy in to for those folks in a clinical setting that I think having trained health professionals who are licensed, who know what they’re doing around like good diagnostic skills, good treatment skills, good knowledge and training around psychedelics, pairing those two together and helping people in that model, that’s really important. But there are people, whether they have a diagnosed condition, mental health condition or not, who may not want to interface with the Western medical system. They don’t have a very positive view of physicians or psychologists, and they want to use it in a safe and effective setting. And they don’t want to be labeled as being bipolar or having an anxiety disorder or dealing with trauma in the clinical sense, they want to have an experience that is non clinical, that is for personal exploration and growth. Again, they may or may not have a diagnosable mental health condition, and there needs to be a system for those people. Then where does the licensed health care professional fit into that? Because if it’s not under the auspices of the system that we have, and it’s sanctioned, then we as licensed health care providers are risking our professional careers, our licenses, by working with these people outside of a legally sanctioned setting. So where do they have to go then? Then they have to go to people who are not licensed, and that’s fine, because there’s a lot of non licensed people out there that do good work, but it’s just, it’s a little bit more open ended, to try to figure out who’s, you know, word of mouth, like, who’s a good who’s a good practitioner out there, and maybe a little less control, little less regulated. So, you know, I’m a believer in both models and we, we, as a group for this state legislative mandate, we we couldn’t come to any consensus around recommending a system where licensed health care providers could could help people with psychedelic assisted psychotherapy, because it just didn’t seem to be the data and the resources that we would need to stand something up like that in a clinical sense, in Vermont, and we didn’t make any recommendations for a non clinical model, the way they have in Oregon, for example, or a decriminalization model the way we have in some states and municipalities, and what’s going on in Colorado. We just couldn’t do it, which I thought was unfortunate, because I think there’s a way, maybe I’m idealistic, but I think there’s a way to do both. I think there’s a way to involve licensed health care practitioners outside of a medical or designated clinical setting, like there’s a like a consultation model or something where that licensed professional is still protected, so they’re not recommending somebody go do an illegal drug and have an experience. But they’re there as a support system. They’re there as a consultant that they they are available as a resource for people who want to have these experiences clinically or. Otherwise, I think there’s a way to do it.

Dr. Sandy Newes 20:01

Interesting. So I’m curious, what do you think the value added of the clinician in that setting is, like, I hear you loud and clear, that we don’t always need to be clinical. It doesn’t always need to be run by clinicians, and there’s a gray area. So because, you know, I’m adding in, I don’t know if you agree with this, I’m adding in because, you know, having a license means you have an ethics board. It means that you have an assumed set of standards. You know, there’s a knowledge base that we can assume that you generally know, you know to varying degrees. So there is some sort of, like, foundational piece. So, you know, assuming that, I mean, assuming that we’re in agreement of that. I’m curious, what else do you think about? Is value added for the clinician, in those in those situations,

Dr. Rick Barnett 20:44

because we’re trained, because we work with we’ve, you know, one of the things in all of my psychedelic training that I’ve gone through is that I was sort of struck by at the time I was getting training, I had already worked in the field about 20 years. I’m getting training on psychedelic assisted psychotherapy or helping people with psychedelic experiences, where I’m learning about basically, like holding space for people. How do you hold space for people? And you know, I mean, we hold space for people day in and day out. We know how to sit with people. We know how to sit with people in crisis. We know how to sit with people who are getting hysterical and crying their heads off or or really despondent, or whatever. We know that no psychedelics involved. We know how to sit with people. And I think that training and that expertise that comes with knowing how to be with people going through different things is really, really important when and it can be applied to psychedelic now, psychedelics, obviously, I’m somebody who believes that clinicians should probably have their own psychedelic experiences in order to be helpful, or more helpful for people who want to have a psychedelic therapy experience. But I think a lot of our skills already, as licensed trained clinicians come to bear. And there’s ways in which we know how to spot trauma. We know we know how to spot non verbal signs of distress, or we know where to ask questions, where other people might not. We know when to stand back. You know, one of the things that you have heard from Michael and Annie Mithoefer and from other people in the psychedelic space, is this idea of, Wait, why am I talking? Why am I talking? Why am I talking? And so many people who may not be trained clinicians, and frankly, even some trained clinicians, we we can, we can talk too much, and we need to. We need to stop and just listen and be present, and know how to be present with somebody who’s going through a process. And so I do think that the skills that we bring to the psychedelic space as clinicians is really important, spotting trauma, spotting the signs of something good or bad happening, gently inquiring about it. And then also I have a and this is maybe a little bit off topic, and I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but I have a master’s degree in clinical psychopharmacology, and I really see that. What’s that?

Dr. Sandy Newes 23:12

Know that about you? That’s an action, sure, that’s very informative. It’s

Dr. Rick Barnett 23:16

very important. Because here there are people that you know, and I know that are wanting to micro dose, or they want to have a psychedelic experiences, but they’ve been on Zoloft, 200 milligrams for 17 years, and they’ve been on this medication and that medication, they’re still taking it. Should I come off of it? Should I not come off of it? What do I do? I want to try this, but I don’t know about that. And you know, having a degree in psychopharmacology is so, so useful, because otherwise you have people who are out there serving this medicine who have no background in pharmacology, and they’re telling people, well, you need to come off your SSRI for at least, you know, two weeks before interview. Any you know psilocybin. It’s like, well, let’s get a little nuance here. Do you really know what you’re talking about? Do you know what the research is on SSRIs and and psychedelics, and what is the what are the pharmacological properties of both and which receptors are they targeting, and how do you work with somebody around gentle taper or titration processes and dosing schedules and stuff? So that’s another piece that I think a lot of clinicians bring to the table when it comes to psychedelics. And so that’s important. That’s super

Dr. Sandy Newes 24:17

important, because I’ve always wondered, you know, how much of that is just an artifact from, like, you know, back in the day when it was all in the underground, so they were taking, you know, I mean, coming from, like, these ancient traditions that that with the diet, which may or may not be as relevant in the modern world, you know, when somebody doesn’t have all that time, and then what is the downside, you know, of getting off the SSRI that may or may not also be negatively impacting the experience. I mean, there’s just a lot there to unpack. And, you know, I don’t know how much information I’ve actually never really looked at it. Is there a lot of information available on that? Or seems to me like it’s only just a little bit, because it’s not been legal, so it’s harder to look at that. Yeah.

Dr. Rick Barnett 25:00

Well, there’s, there’s information out there, you know, you know Ben Malcolm, the spirit, pharmacist, no, oh, you don’t, oh, you should have him on your podcast for sure. Good.

Dr. Sandy Newes 25:13

I’ll make a list, you know. I’m sure you could go on forever about that, but I’m just, you know, just kind of noticing like that is a big lack of information. Like, in the training programs that we do, we don’t have that information. Other people don’t have that information, and I think there’s a real need for it.

Dr. Rick Barnett 25:29

I have that information, and Dr. Ben Malcolm has that information. There are charts out there. I have charts and like, taper schedules and all this stuff. Yeah, good.

Dr. Sandy Newes 25:38

I mean, I don’t advise people on on micro dosing for just that reason. I mean, it’s not legal. It’s not decriminalized in my state. And I don’t, I don’t know what I’m talking about, and I own, you know, so I’m glad to know that you do. That’s great news. And, you know, follow up conversation for sure. So let’s switch gears to the addiction recovery piece. So I first, as I mentioned, I first heard you on a panel talk about psychedelics and addiction recovery at Soulquinox. And I kind of started like, I’ve worked in addiction and trauma for a long time and but done addiction work as kind of secondary to the trauma work. So I don’t do primary addiction work like people don’t come to me to get sober. They come to me after they are, you know, kind of stabilized in their sobriety. And then we’re working with the nervous system pieces. And so I’ve been tracking this pretty closely, and I’ve come to a place of, you know, shifting. I went from a hard no from safety reasons, and then I’ve been educating myself. So I’m, I’m just curious, you know, what your thoughts are. Has that changed for you over time? Like, where do you currently stand with it? You know, how do psychedelics fit in when somebody is in recovery?

Dr. Rick Barnett 26:53

Yeah. And so what did you mean by for a long time you were a hard No, and now, but

Dr. Sandy Newes 26:56

what I mean is that I, when I first started, like, I do ketamine, I do ketamine assisted psychotherapy. And when I first started doing that in 2020 I started training in 2019 and saw my first client in 2020 I would not take people who wanted to come to do ketamine work to get sober. Now, the psychiatrist that I work with my prescriber is a is board certified in addiction medicine, and he was very confident that that we could do that and do that work. But for myself, I just think personally, from a personal and professional ethics and standards and integrity place, I didn’t feel like I knew what I was doing, and I didn’t know what the relevant considerations were, so I wouldn’t do it until I got more education, training and understanding, and my perspective has been evolving. So that’s what I mean,

Dr. Rick Barnett 27:41

I see, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in general, you know, it’s interesting. One of my early experiences, you know, in 2019 getting up to speed with what’s going on with the psychedelic research, I heard Michael Pollan speaking at the APA convention in, I think it was Washington, DC, that was in 2019 and Matt Johnson was the then president of APA division 28 well known researcher at Johns Hopkins at the Time. He’s now at Shepp Pratt. And he introduced Michael Paul, and Michael Pollan spoke. And then they both came out on stage, and one of the things that they were both saying was that psychedelics are not only not addictive, but they are anti addictive and and it was interesting, because I stood up and I said, You both said that they’re not only not addictive and even anti addictive, but my experience has been that people can get addicted to anything. They can get addicted to all kinds of experiences. There’s process addictions, there’s substance addictions, there’s all kinds of addictions. And you know, I would, I would argue that there are a very small, there is a very small subset of people who just like to trip, and they like to do a lot of psychedelics a lot of the time, and they’ll mix and match, and they’ll do it, and to some detriment, you know, over time, you can get a pretty washed out brain if you’re doing ketamine one day and 5-MeO-DMT the next day, and take a large dose of LSD the next day, and you maybe take a day off, and then You have an Ayahuasca experience, and all you’re doing is going, you know, day after day, or every other day, or every fourth day, doing or maybe using 12 different psychedelics on the same day, you know, in a way that you know, in a setting that’s not safe, and maybe you’re getting physically harmed or compromising some aspect of your values, or physical safety and stuff. So I do think there’s a small subset of people that can take the experiences and run with them in destructive ways, but in general, I am somebody who sees psychedelics as being helpful in addressing people who are in. Addiction and trying to help them get off of their drug of choice or their behavior of choice. And I also believe that psychedelics can be helpful for people in early recovery from addiction, and for people who are in long term recovery from addiction, it really depends on one’s intention and how. How is the psychedelic experience being prepared for how is it being administered? What is the support system around it afterwards? Is it being is it part of a community support group, thing that’s ongoing? Is it? Is it just well done? And I think, I think we run into trouble when, like, for example, with ketamine, you do ketamine work, right? I’ve helped people get off of alcohol by using ketamine. And it’s, it’s amazing to see people transform from being, from drinking two, three bottles of wine a day for 1012, years, and you know, really, really sick from it to going to use ketamine with a benzo taper process on this outpatient on the side, and then going in for regular infusions for, you know, twice a week or once a week for several weeks, and all of a sudden they’ve stopped drinking, and they’ve achieved total sobriety. And it and it happens, and it’s through the ketamine, and it’s through the therapy, and it’s through the the medical team that’s supporting the person. A lot of prescribers are like, Hell, no, I don’t know how to manage, like, what they’re on an SSRI, and you want me to give them Ativan for their alcohol withdrawal, and they’re trying to and then we’re going to give them ketamine. And, like, a lot of people are just like, that’s too much, that’s too complicated. But if you have the skills, you can really help people. And of course, we have Ibogaine for opioid addiction. People are often administered now Ibogaine and 5-MeO-DMT to help them get off of the stimulant use disorder, opioid use disorder, and that can really, you know, jolt somebody out of a pretty deep addictive process by having these powerful psychedelic experiences, the question is, What support do they have on the back end? And I really think that whether you’re in recovery from addiction and you’re curious about having a psychedelic experience, or you’re in active addiction and you’d like to have a psychedelic experience to help you stop using or engaging with your addictive behavior. I think people really need to have supports and structures and systems around them to help them on in an ongoing kind of way. It can’t be just a one off. Oh, this is going to fix me, or I’m just gonna, I’m 30 years sober, I’m gonna take a large dose of mushrooms and see what happens. It’s like, No, probably not a good way to do it. You probably want to have some, some people that you’re talking to and you’re engaging with to support you in that process.

Dr. Sandy Newes 32:54

We focus that a little bit on ketamine, just for the moment. And the reason I I obviously have a vested interest in it, because I do it. I’m, you know, a full time ketamine clinician, along with training and resources. But, but beyond that, it’s also legal, like, you know, I know that we’ve got decriminalization, and we’ve got a couple states, but mostly, you know, people have to go to the underground. I mean, would you say that that’s accurate? Yeah, and, and so kind of just focusing specifically on ketamine. I’m really curious, because I, you know, I said initially was a hard no for me, and then what I began to witness, and have consistently witnessed, is that people don’t come to me to get sober, because that’s not my primary thing. I will actually refer them elsewhere, but I will be part of the team. So I’m, I’ve worked with a fair amount of people who kind of have an addiction in their back pocket, like a semi functional like, oh, by the way, now that I’m kind of stopped, I was actually smoking cannabis, like every day, all day, or, Oh, by the way, you know how I told you I drank like two beers a day, while I actually drank like eight and these kind of like almost spontaneous remissions, where people, like, I have a caseload that’s about a third right now, what I call, like accidentally sober, like they didn’t come to me for that, and that can that might also include, like, overeating. So I am seeing what I call spontaneous remission that I’ve now begun to work with, more specifically, of this, like, remission of overall kind of compulsive processes. And I’m just kind of curious now, I do all cap like, so I do believe that it’s different when Cap ketamine assisted psychotherapy. So I’m just curious if you have thoughts about that, like, what is working there? How can we make that even stronger? Any kind of concerns about that, because I think you might have changed in your perspective, too. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I feel like I first heard you say, I don’t know about ketamine. It might make people use more, but I might, I might have heard that wrong,

Dr. Rick Barnett 34:56

right? Well, I do think that in general, this is a pretty i. A broad generalization, but I think that ketamine and MDMA in particular may have a higher misuse potential than, let’s say, LSD or psilocybin or DMT or something, and there’s a lot of different reasons for that, but in general, again, if ketamine is offered in support of setting with the structures around it and the systems around it to help somebody process their experiences in the context of psychotherapy or group work or whatever, I think that it’s the addictive liability is really low, and then in terms of, like, these accidentally sober, spontaneous remissions, what I think is going on there. And this is me, you know, me going back to my my 12 step roots, and you know, I worked at the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation for years, so I’m well entrenched in the Minnesota model of addiction recovery, and I’m a supporter and a believer in it. But you know, the story goes back with Bill Wilson, the co-founder of AA, is that, you know what is? What is really helpful for people looking to overcome their addiction is a spiritual experience. Now, it doesn’t have to be, you know, I saw God or this massive like white light and the wind through my hair. And, you know, I was one with everything, kind of thing. But we know with ketamine, people go to these places that produce profound shifts in their awareness, their emotional sensibilities, their constructs of who they are, and, you know, the different different parts of themselves that they see during a ketamine experience. So that kind of shake up, which is kind of spiritual in nature, is, I think, what’s going on there for folks who are getting sober accidentally that they’re having having such a profound shake up within their system that the familiar pathways that the addiction latches on to so that it can keep so it can stay active in the system there, they kind of disperse, or they get sort of shuffled around, and the person isn’t like, oh, I guess I don’t need to drink Tonight, or, I guess I don’t want that cigarette that’s weird, or, you know, like they wouldn’t have thought that would have happened, but they just noticed that it’s that’s not as compelling anymore, going, you know, going down those familiar pathways in their brain and so they can get their fix. It just doesn’t seem quite as compelling for some people. It’s definitely not a cure all. You know this Sandy, it doesn’t, it’s not. It doesn’t help everybody. But there’s a percentage of people who, like you said, either intentionally or accidentally, find that their addictive behavior, whether it’s substance or or behavioral, doesn’t seem like they it just doesn’t seem that interesting to them anymore. They don’t want to do it. And that’s a really

Dr. Sandy Newes 38:00

good way of putting it. It just doesn’t seem that’s interesting. But then I’m like, will remain eternally curious that it seems like there must be that, like, that, like, meaning that, like, kind of drive towards doing it. How I, you know, for me, I suspect that there’s some kind of shift in the default mode network, and that we’re working with the nervous system in such a way that it kind of like calms that compulsivity. So yeah, I have had two people, so I’ve seen a lot of people like, I do cat I do cat full time. I see I do multiple sessions a week in all preparation and integration. So that’s what I’m doing. And but I have seen two people, perhaps three, maybe four, like two, that I kind of lost track of, that kind of went off the deep end, and it actually did send them into addiction. Both those people had access to the medicine outside of the the session. One had access to it recreationally. One actually had an at home prescription. And I’ve given a lot of thought to what what I could do to mitigate that. And I’m curious what your thoughts are, be it education, be it limiting access, be it, like you said, you know, building a whole system around it, good preparation and integration. What are your thoughts? And then we’ll switch to five mu, yeah,

Dr. Rick Barnett 39:14

no, it’s, it’s one that has evolved for me, that that whole concept of at home use versus in office use, of course, with intramuscular and infusion ketamine therapy. You know someone, I guess someone could self administer intramuscularly. But in general, when we think of intramuscular or IV use of ketamine in a clinical way or for therapeutic purposes. It’s usually in the in the context of a medical office or a therapy setting, right? But the the question is, with lozenges, so lozenges are easy, much more easily access, accessible and self administered. And I was somebody at the beginning of my ketamine work where I was like, No, I. Mind Bloom is great. I think if you can call up and get a bunch of ketamine sent to your home, and you can get access to it, and as long as you’re connected to a therapist, and they seem to have somebody who’s there to support them through the process, that seems fine, everybody should have access to this. It’s, it’s safe, you know, all this stuff, we’re portable. It’s portable, yeah, accessible. It’s, it’s, you know, a patient’s right. They shouldn’t have to be restricted to doing in a therapist’s office that’s too confining. It’s too limiting, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then over time, I’ve been like, you know, people don’t need to do ketamine that often, and if it means coming into the office once a week or for a little while twice a week, you and I have done regular psychotherapy, where someone’s come in just for regular psychotherapy twice a week, so coming in twice a week for ketamine, once a week for ketamine, I just, I’ve sort of evolved towards like I think it should probably only be done for most people, until they’re proven otherwise. I guess, until it’s until you’re clear that they’re stable and everything’s okay, it should be done with the support of a therapist or a healthcare professional in the room with them. I think you optimize the experience. Also. The analogy I like to use with patients is, and you, I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, but you know, when you a new movie comes out, it’s a blockbuster movie. It’s got all these sound effects and stuff. And you’re like, I want to go to the theater and see that movie. I want to sit in the chairs and, you know, you go there and you have this amazing experience. But then you’re also like, well, I’ll just wait till that comes out on Netflix, and I have a really, I have a 70 inch TV and a great sound system, and I’ll just sit there on my couch and watch the movie and and and it’ll be just as good as it’s in the theater. It’s like, no, it’s really not. Because you can pause the movie and get up for popcorn, or you need to go to the bathroom, or the dog starts barking, or whatever. It’s like, it’s just not the same. So I say like, that’s kind of at home ketamine use is like, it’s just not the same. You’re going to have a much more held, impactful experience if you’re doing it, like, you’re going to your therapist’s office, like it’s the setting for healing, yeah, your living room isn’t necessarily the setting for healing, you know?

Dr. Sandy Newes 42:12

So it can be, but it’s not intentionally. So Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Rick Barnett 42:16

So I’ve sort of evolved my thinking, like, I think it’s probably better if people are going to have a few ketamine experiences, to do them regularly within the context of a therapy setting first and then if they’re stable over time, and they want to do maintenance doses at home, as long as they’re in contact with their therapist, saying, I think I’m going to do it Saturday night. I just wanted to let you know we’ll have an integration session within the next week or two to talk about the experience after they’re stable. I think that’s

Dr. Sandy Newes 42:43

great, nice. I have begun to educate people about preoccupation, like, if they have home use at all. I say, if you find yourself preoccupied with whether you should do it, or, you know, you’re supposed to do it on Wednesday, but maybe you’ll just do it on Sunday. And is anybody going to be paying attention to if you, you know, start to get the prescription sooner than you’re supposed to, like, that’s the first sign, right? That you’re going down the wrong way, and then you might want to get rid

Dr. Rick Barnett 43:09

of it. And I can attest to like, as a person in recovery from addiction myself, I’ve had two ketamine experiences as a person in long term recovery as part of my training. I wanted to have the experience, because if I’m going to if I’m going to treat people with ketamine in my office, I want to know what it feels like. And here I am, somebody who identifies as sober, no alcohol, no drug use, and I had an intramuscular ketamine experience that it had blew my mind. I was like, holy moly. And it sold me on why this could be therapeutic for people, but it was really intense for somebody who hadn’t used alcohol or drugs for a long time. And then it was a year later where I had a lozenge experience, 300 milligram lozenges. And that was very profound too. But I also was honest with myself, I knew that this is way too convenient, and this felt way too good. And I’m not using it because I’m depressed or I have trauma or anxiety or anything. Hey, if I were to use ketamine, it would simply be for personal exploration or recreation, and as somebody who identifies in as being in recovery, I haven’t used ketamine since that that was for, let’s see here, almost three years ago, was my last ketamine use, and I’ve only done it twice, because I know myself. I know that it felt really good. And if I had, you know, if I had the a different mindset, I could be like, Sure, Sunday night, you know, thrown 100 milligrams. Oh, it’s Wednesday, and I need to relax a little bit more. Oh, yeah, I’ll do that. Yeah, right. Nobody

Dr. Sandy Newes 44:40

will know. It’s just a little bit right exactly.

Dr. Rick Barnett 44:43

I don’t need to, I don’t need to go there personally well. And

Dr. Sandy Newes 44:46

I think that kind of fits with what I was saying I mean. And I think that’s really good and useful information for people to have, like, get really clear on what you’re using and why and under what circumstances, and who you are in the world and what your personal needs are. Right. So, all right, can we switch gears to five mu? Yes. So I witnessed again on LinkedIn, you kind of posted that you were doing it a training correct on 5-MeO and trauma, and that that was through what is the name of the place? It starts with the T Yeah. Tandava, Tandava, who I have seen them speak at various things, and have been pretty intrigued by what they’re doing. They seem like they know what they’re doing and that they’ve got a lot of knowledge in this area. And so I’m just curious what draws you to it, how has it impacted you, personally and professionally? And I understand y’all are doing a retreat. So So yeah, tell us about it.

Dr. Rick Barnett 45:42

Yeah, next week, I’m going down to Mexico. I get to co lead my first 5-MeO retreat down there with one of the leaders who was, you know, one of the founders and the trainers of this year long trauma informed 5-MeO facilitator training program. So I did that all of 2023, mostly online and then, and the reason why is because I learned about five me, O, d M T as being this, like holy grail of psychedelics. We talk about regular DMT, that’s n, n, d M T as the spirit molecule. So that’s the active ingredient in Ayahuasca. For example, there’s two ingredients in ayahuasca, one of which is DMT. The other one is an Maoi inhibitor, so that the DMT can last longer in your system. Otherwise, DMT is very it’s a very quick experience, but five methoxy Dimethyltryptamine, 5-MeO-DMT is called the God molecule, supposedly, so the difference between the spirit molecule and the god molecule. So I heard about it, and I wanted to learn more about it. I did this year long training with these guys, Tandava and their their five education f, i, v, e education program, and that culminated into two weeks in Mexico where 5-MeO-DMT is legal. So I actually had the opportunity to do 5-MeO-DMT several times at the end of my training. And these guys are really known for being very safe, very ethical, very cautious about the use of five me, O, d M T, and their training protocol is not, is everything about safety, safety, safety, safety. And so I felt very safe and felt very it was very professional training program, and we had the opportunity to use five me, O, d M T several times in different formats, and it was indeed very profound. I went back in January because these guys had a partnership with University College London and Imperial College in the UK to do a study using five me, O, D, M, T and measuring brain wave activity, so putting an EG cap on your head and having a full release 5-MeO experience. And I was somebody who, when I’ve done 5-MeO-DMT, I’m very still. Some people are very dynamic. They move around a lot, but I’m very still. So I was a good candidate for this study. So I had a full release. He’s not gonna yank the EG. I’m gonna yank the EG off. I had example, yeah. So I can’t say enough about this particular molecule. The training program that I did that I’m going to co facilitate the retreat next week. It’s really a unique, unique psychedelic experience, and unique in so many ways, because it’s short acting, it’s extremely powerful, and therefore, I think the caution and care surrounding its use needs to be of utmost importance. So to be trained and to be able to facilitate these kinds of experiences for people in Mexico in a legal setting has been really something that I’ve been very passionate about. I’m really excited about,

Dr. Sandy Newes 49:06

do you think you need to be a clinician to do it? I’m just kind of looping back to the piece that you said, that we talked about before, and then I want to hear more about how it’s influenced you so but I’m just curious, like, is it for clinicians, or is it kind of a broader What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Rick Barnett 49:21

I think it’s broader. I think that. I think that clinicians who are not are psychedelic naive, they wouldn’t know what to make of 5-MeO-DMT to see somebody flailing around and screaming at the top of their lungs or crying hysterically or seeming like they’re completely broken and dissociated afterwards, all of which would send off alarm bells for any clinician worth their salt. But if you know five, MEO DMT, you know that these experiences can happen, and they’re not necessarily bad that that you just work, work with people. In fact, a lot of people I’ve seen come out of what looked like a horrible five. Meo experience, and the only thing they could report was nothing but wonder and awe and love and beauty. But in the meantime, they were screaming their heads off while they were on the 5-MeO-DMT, so a complete opposite of what you think. So if you’re a clinician and you see somebody in just a substance, and they start screaming their heads off, and you’re freaking out because they’re freaking out and you don’t know what to do, and you should contain them, or, you know, quickly administer some sedatives so they can calm down. No, you let them be. You keep them safe. It’s very quick. It’s going to be over in 510, minutes or less. And when they come out of it routinely, they’re like so filled with joy and gratitude and love and awe and wonder. It was the most beautiful experience of their lives, hands down. And so I think what’s really important with 5-MeO-DMT is to be well trained. Doesn’t matter if you’re licensed or not. You just need to know what this medicine does and how to work with it.

Dr. Sandy Newes 51:01

Oh, interesting. So I am curious on a kind of, you know, personal slash professional, wherever you want to put the balance, if there’s a difference for you, because some people, there is, and some there’s not. So you did this deep dive training with this medicine, how has it impacted you? Personally, professionally. Like, how are you different? Like, what did you get out of it? Whatever you feel like sharing. I mean, obviously that’s a deeply personal question, but

Dr. Rick Barnett 51:29

you know, I mean, I think that in general, it’s left me with a feeling more securely than ever, that all shall be well, that all is well, and everything shall be well. And despite all of the and and along with all of the chaos and drama and trauma and the insanity of what’s going on in the world, whether it’s natural disasters, as you guys have faced, or political unrest or the threat of war or or the climate crisis, is like it that all of that is real and upsetting, and we must do what we can do to help each other and get through it at the same time there, there, there is a possibility, and I feel like I’ve experienced it, that that there are, there is a perspective that can hold all of it in a much more fluid and peaceful kind of way. And to have had access to that perspective, and to have that almost be part of my nervous system now is incredibly liberating and settling. You know, it’s very stabilizing in some way that to feel like I have access to that all is well perspective at any time if I want to activate it. So I think it’s, it’s really a valuable experience for people to have, if they feel called to have the experience, to get that kind of awareness lodged into your system, is really, it’s really peaceful, and I’m super grateful for it.

Dr. Sandy Newes 53:19

Would you consider it to be almost like a state? Is it more like a cognitive set, a state, like a physiological state, in the kind of like Buddhist acceptance way? I’m just curious, like, Can you name that like a little bit more, like you say it’s like lodged in you? So, so I can extrapolate what that means to me. But I’m curious if you can just give us a couple more sentences about what that means, because that draws from a lot of stuff. Like, you call it the god molecule, right? I mean, like, is that God? Is that acceptance? Is that your nervous system is just so stable now that you can find that safety?

Dr. Rick Barnett 54:00

Yeah? I mean, we know from our psychedelic training that there’s a familiar takeaway messages that people get. It’s pretty, pretty universal that people will say there’s a sense of oceanic boundlessness, or this idea of paradoxicality, that we’re seeing the paradox and everything. And there’s, the other concept is ineff ability, that it’s, there’s something ine ineffable about psychedelic experiences that they’re hard to describe, and so adding any more sentences to it, it’s very, very difficult. There’s, there’s an ineff ability. When I say lodged my nervous system, it’s, it’s an energy that I think was awakened, that is there, that was always there, and is everywhere, frankly. But to have it be awakened in, in, in me, and should I choose to sort of close. My eyes and meditate and drop into it to have it accessible is really things very, very healthy and very reassuring and stabilizing. So maybe that’s not the case for everybody, but that’s the best way I can describe it. Love that. That’s

Dr. Sandy Newes 55:15

beautiful. So, so we’re approaching the end of our time, and so, you know, I’m just kind of curious, like, first of all, that is a great explanation. So rewind for a minute. Awesome. Thank you for that. That’s super, super interesting. So if there’s, you know, one more thing, or things that you’d like to share about yourself personally, like, what might you like to share with the world, or professionally, and you know, or and, or you know, where do you see the field going, or where would you like for it to go? Like, what would you like to kind of end this with,

Dr. Rick Barnett 55:52

well, I really like our conversation about what I call psychedelic sobriety. And psychedelic sobriety is sounds like an oxymoron, or how can those two things go together? Because when people think of sobriety, they think of being sober that means alcohol or drug free. So putting psychedelic and sobriety together seems like a misnomer. Seems like it doesn’t work. And I recently gave a talk to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, their center for innovation, they had me come in for a brown bag discussion, and I said I gave this talk on psychedelic sobriety, and one of the people said that doesn’t make any sense. There’s no such thing as psychedelic sobriety, because you can’t have those two together. Sobriety means abstinence. That’s it. And the whole point of my talk was like redefining, not necessarily, what recovery from addiction is, but what is sobriety and and I like this idea of sobriety broadened out beyond just the alcohol or drug free definition, but more like the definition of sober minded, level headed, balanced, nuanced, harmonious. You know, a certain gravity. When someone says something is very sobering, there’s there’s a gravity about it, there’s a seriousness of it. And so psychedelic sobriety, to me, is, isn’t, is something that I’m working on, developing ideas and materials around to help people who may have a very entrenched view of what sobriety or recovery from addiction is. And it isn’t simply a harm reduction mentality, where you know you might use safe consumption site or clean needles, or you might take methadone or buprenorphine, or you might have fentanyl test kits, like anything we think of in terms of harm reduction. That is a model to help people stay alive, and it’s a valuable one, but that’s a specific model. And then we have the absence based model, no drugs, no alcohol, under no circumstances, any time, and that’s really helpful for some people as well. But then there’s like, this blend of the two, like, where do we? Where do we integrate harm some harm reduction principles with some of the lessons and and learnings from an from an abstinence based model, and can they come together harmoniously in this idea of psychedelic sobriety. So that’s something I’m really working on over the next year. So I’m going to be focusing a lot of my attention on trying to develop some more talks around this and maybe some written materials. Because I think people have a lot of questions about, how does this actually work? Can somebody use a psychedelic to get sober? Can somebody use a psychedelic to maintain sobriety, can somebody use a psychedelic who’s already been in long term recovery from addiction? And the answer is yes,

Dr. Sandy Newes 58:52

yeah. Well, I absolutely love that, and I look forward to all of those things, because I too, think it’s really, important clients that I have that really struggle with, you know, can I use this? Should I use this? What if I like it? You know, does that is that bad, you know, and just all of that. So I’m grateful to you for being a voice for that, and for, you know, leading the charge to educate the rest of us too. So how can people find you? You’ve, you know, you have a private practice. You’re part of the Vermont psychedelic society. You have this conference that I you know, I don’t know if you plan to do it again, but it’s lovely and and you’re leading these retreats. So how do people find you if they want to learn more about you or access what you have available? How do they find you? Well,

Dr. Rick Barnett 59:37

you know, the best way to reach out to me is probably over social media pretty active there and pretty responsive emails and stuff don’t work really great in my website. I’ve got a couple of different ways people can reach out to me over different websites, but in general, it’s really social media, whether it’s Twitter X or blue sky now and. LinkedIn, obviously, and Instagram, so those are the ones that I’m most active on. So you know, you could search my name on there and reach out to me over,

Dr. Sandy Newes 1:00:07

over there. Well, I want to thank you just heartfelt thanks. I really enjoyed this and really appreciate your time and appreciate your wisdom and expertise and all that you’re offering, not only in this, but to the world. So thank you for your leadership in this space. Thank you.

Dr. Rick Barnett 1:00:23

And thank you for coming to Vermont two years in a row, all the way to North Carolina, and I hope to come down and visit you down there sometime.

Dr. Sandy Newes 1:00:31

Yes, please do. We can take you on a disaster tour as well as a non disaster tour. All right, thank you so much.

Outro 1:00:42

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