IFS, Psychedelics, and the Spirit World: Dick Schwartz Speaks to His Lived Experience

Dr. Sandy Newes 16:08

yeah. Well, and I think that kind of brings back to the psychedelics piece is that, you know, we have a mental health epidemic, and people are flocking to psychedelics, you know, hoping that it’ll be the panacea, which I, you know, continually say, like it is not like it requires a lot of training. It requires a lot of Handle with care. And kind of want to move into some of those directions as well that just, you know, kind of leading to some of the spiritual components, and, you know, some of the things that people can see with this. And I’m just wondering, you know, to back up a little bit, if you could just, you know, you talked, you said in an earlier conversation that we had that really, there actually are some spiritual underpinnings. And some of your work talks about, like the big self and how that parallels to higher self. And I just wonder if you can speak to that part as just kind of a frame,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 16:58

yeah, so when I first encountered self the way I described it, I named four of the C’s, but there are four others, which include courage, creativity, clarity and connectedness. So those are the 8c words that we use to describe the qualities of self. I was amazed, because I was working with a population of clients that had no business showing any of those qualities based on their histories or based on attachment theory, which I had studied in graduate school, which says to have any of that inside of you, you needed to have gotten it from a relationship. It’s not inherent in you. And I was working with clients who had horrible, horrible, torturous childhoods. You couldn’t account for this being there based on attachment theory, right? And don’t get me wrong, there are many things I love about attachment theory, but that one piece is, is just wrong. So

Dr. Sandy Newes 18:02

you’re saying that that attachment theory implies that one can’t develop attachment, and therefore, since the 8c are so much about connection to self and others, that one might speculate that that wouldn’t exist if somebody has a whole bunch of disrupted attachment. Is that? What is that what I’m hearing you say, yeah, that attachment

Dr. Dick Schwartz 18:22

theory basically posits that you get those qualities from relationships not inherent in us. And so if you don’t get them from a parent, then you got to get them from a therapist, or you get them from a spouse, or some, some intimate relationship, and here I was finding this in people who’ve been I said, tortured every day. So I couldn’t square that with psychological theories at all like I searched, and it wasn’t until some of my students started saying, what you’re talking about sounds like what I’ve been studying in Hinduism or studying in Buddhism. Or it turned out that all of the world’s spiritual traditions know about this, and almost no psychologies know about it, and they have words for it. And so I actually co authored a book on that topic with a guy named Falconer called many minds oneself and as because I came into this very a spiritual person, or even anti spiritual. But that was the beginning of a shift toward a much more spiritual understanding of all this. And so yeah, at this point for me, what I’m calling self is a drop of that big ocean of the big self, or God, or whatever you want to call that, the non dual mm. In and that I love the quantum physics, photons are both a particle and a wave. So there’s a wave state of self where you don’t have boundaries, and you just feel this kind of blissful oneness. And you can access that through psychedelics, you’re not no longer connected to your your individuality, to your body at all. And then as you come back, you begin to particalize, and you come back into your body, and you feel these boundaries, and you feel separate from others, but it’s the same self. It’s a drop of that ocean just in a different form. That’s where I stand with this. And and it’s very helpful to know that. It’s very helpful to know that at that much higher level, you are connected to everything else, and that what we call death is just a transition to that so on. And so that’s for me, one value of psychedelics is driving that home, like before I did that ketamine in particular, I kind of thought that death wasn’t so bad and it’s just a transition. But after having done it a few times, I know that that’s where we’re headed, and that it’s it’s all okay, and that’s why psychedelics are so useful for end of life people.

Dr. Sandy Newes 21:31

Yeah. I mean, that’s a very much a parallel to my own personal experience, as well as what we see in with our clients and in our training program. And you know, I want to get to that in a minute, or maybe now, but want to just kind of ping that, if this feels like the right way. But you know, we are starting to actually have concerns, not that we shouldn’t be looking for that, but that as practitioners, we need to be really careful about that, as this, like endless searching for this like ever deeper spiritual phenomena, is really maybe one of the pathways to addiction that we are so seeking this connection to higher self, which is what a lot of Earth medicine and ancestral Medicine study would say that we are so disconnected that we are desperately Seeking so then we psychedelics that take us to this. Oh my gosh, here it is. So therefore I need to keep doing and I just wonder, do you know, what are your thoughts about that?

Dr. Dick Schwartz 22:29

Yeah, people call that a spiritual bypass. You see it not just in psychedelics, but in all spiritualities that you can access that bliss state. And many gurus and seekers advocate that just to that’s the goal, is to get more and more awakened, quote, unquote, that way, and to live in those places as long as much as possible. All that would be fine, if not for the fact that in doing that, you’re abandoning these exile parts that hurting and needing your attention, right? And that’s the addictive part of it. Is that just like getting high on drugs, you get higher than the pain, same with spirituality, yeah. Well, and

Dr. Sandy Newes 23:21

it’s interesting because it’s like, to me that that’s only one aspect, you know, like, like, there’s a, you know, like a, it’s a poster. I mean, it’s like a Buddhist meme. But one of the cool things is, you know, carry wood, you know, like, chop wood, carry water. Like enlightenment. Chop wood, carry water. Enlightenment. Chop wood, carry water. And that strikes me that that’s kind of that like, yes, we have these moments, and it might illuminate what we could be striving for. But you know, are we really like, is that really enlightenment, right? Or is that a window into what can be that we should continue to work towards, helping our nervous system get towards and work with our exiles to be able to access that more fully in the day to day.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 24:05

Yeah. I mean, that’s, again, one of the values I think, of psychedelics Is that you, you get there, you feel it, and then you bring it back, back, that kind of, what we call self energy, that you can access when you get that, that that non dual, you bring it back to your parts. And when you come back with that much self, that, just by itself, relaxes everybody, and you, you can do a huge amount of healing. That’s such a

Dr. Sandy Newes 24:38

lovely way to say that when you come back with that much self, and then everything relaxes, because that’s very much a parallel to my experience. One of the things I’ve gotten from my own spiritual study is this the phrase expansion and contraction. So I teach clients like, you know, you go to these places and you expand, and then nature pours a vacuum, so you’re going to want to contract, right? Right, like, you know, the protectors might come back online. So we need to kind of ground ourselves in the expansion, recognizing that real life has a degree of real life. And

Dr. Dick Schwartz 25:13

yeah, that’s one of the dangers, because although it hasn’t happened nearly as much as I expected, there is what we call protector backlash. So what we learned the hard way without psychedelics, is the importance of working with protectors to get permission to go to these vulnerable exile places that they’ve been trying to keep you away from for decades. So we learned all the protector fears, and we learn how to address those fears and how to get permission. And psychedelics can very spontaneously take people to those places, as it does put the protectors to sleep. Now I expected a lot more backlash from that. My thinking about why sometimes people don’t have that experience is because, when you access that much self, as I said earlier, parts, just get calmer about okay, there is this big, strong person in us who can handle all this stuff. We don’t have to punish them for going to these vulnerable places, because they can handle it. And you know, some people still do but, but we’ve learned before the medicine is is injected to work with any protectors and all their fears about what might happen during the journey, or about going on the journey at all and address those fears, and so our subjects don’t go without permission from their protectors. Seems to make for calmer and deeper journeys. Can

Dr. Sandy Newes 26:56

you speak to just a little bit of the How to on that? You know, one of the things again, this, like, you know, what kind of snippets can we draw from those who, you know, people get stuck like, Oh, I’m not, IFS certified, so therefore I can’t use any of the concepts and, and, you know, first of all, do you share that? Like, are you okay with people kind of taking snippets? Or is it like,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 27:17

no, of course. Okay, all

Dr. Sandy Newes 27:19

right. So if you are then I wonder if you could share some snippets, because that’s also a really nice segue into kind of, you know, talking about unattached burdens and guides and things like that. That I know is some of the pieces in your model as well. Do

Dr. Dick Schwartz 27:32

you want to role play? It sure. Okay, Sandy, so as we contemplate going on this journey, what comes up for you in the way of fear.

Dr. Sandy Newes 27:44

I’m afraid of what the other people in the group might think. I’m afraid of what you might think. I’m afraid I might do something weird, or that something unexpected might come out, and everybody’s gonna think I’m strange. Okay,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 27:59

so it makes sense, and something like that might happen, I can promise you I won’t be judging you, and we can check with the rest of the group, and I suspect they’ll answer the same way I did. So so how does that protect your feel now, as I trust that fear

Dr. Sandy Newes 28:20

that feels really good. And I wonder if people would be honest. I wonder if you’d be being honest.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 28:27

Okay, I I can promise you I’m being honest. You know, I’ve had journeys myself, and I did strange things, and so I know it just happens. And so, so anyway, I would just go on about reassuring that way.

Dr. Sandy Newes 28:45

And would you then literally have people say that, if it’s a group, do you have people say that and then have others kind of quickly respond like, do you do that level of process with it?

Dr. Dick Schwartz 28:56

Sure, yep, nice.

Dr. Sandy Newes 28:58

I love that. I mean, I know when you said it to me, just my nervous system, I just kind of just soften a little bit, like, yeah, and, and I noticed that you say that with such authenticity that, you know, that’s one of the things that we really want to kind of put into the field, is really the importance of really showing up and as authentic a way as you can as a practitioner, because the energy is charged. It’s important, absolutely.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 29:21

So when we train therapists, a lot of the training is designed to help them access their self when they’re doing the therapy, know when their parts are interfering, and help them quickly get out of the way. So there’s, there’s some markers for when you’re in self and when you’re not that it’s helpful for people to learn. So for you, the

Dr. Sandy Newes 29:46

big, a big piece, is just getting permission, yeah, like naming it, naming it as though it’s the most normal thing in the world, and then getting permission, having them speak that out loud. You holding that for. The place of the eight C’s,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 30:03

you know, I’ll say to these parts, we’re not going to do it if you don’t want us to. Not going to do it until you give full permission.

Dr. Sandy Newes 30:14

Well. So one of the things I’ve always noticed when I’ve, you know, watched you work, or just, you know the pieces is talking to parts as though they are alive, as though they have separate personalities. I know I’ve heard you talk in other domains about there really is a difference between di D, but not really, right, like it’s more about the rigidity and the way that settles in and so. So what I’m also really interested is this piece about unattached burdens and guides. I’ve been, you know, looking at Bob Falconer’s work as well. Obviously, the two of you have worked together. And the kind of the broad question here is, can you tell us a little bit about that and where I’d like to eventually land? Is, how do we differentiate that, both for as practitioners when we see it, and also helping clients or trainees or participants, depending on whatever word we want to use, work with that as well.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 31:11

So which of those do you want to start with? Well, first of

Dr. Sandy Newes 31:16

all, let’s just talk about what they are, right? And then with the idea being like, how is that different than parts?

Dr. Dick Schwartz 31:21

Okay, so what we call unattached burdens. This goes back many years, and I was working with people with the assumption that there were no bad parts, which is a book I wrote, but I still maintain that, but these are not parts so but I would run into one of these, and it would just say, I want to hurt the person, I want to kill the person I want to do damage to other people. And I would say, okay, what are you afraid would happen if you didn’t do that? And they would say, I’m not afraid of anything. That’s just what I do. I want to destroy her, and I would just go on and on trying to find the protective intention of the thing futilely. And some point I started asking, Well, are you a part? And for whatever reason, they don’t lie. So they’d say, no or not exactly, some version of that. What are you? They’d say, well, they couldn’t really, they’re not that smart, a lot of them, so it’s hard for them to be totally articulate about it. But they could even say when they came into the client, how they got in and so on, and so now we call them unattached burdens, so that they’re it’s a little less scary than the word entity, which is what most, most shamanic traditions call them well,

Dr. Sandy Newes 32:54

and it’s interesting because, you know, like I’ve, you know, studied and Been with various shamanic traditions, but also spiritual traditions like, you know, I shared your view about, you know, there are some core elements that are really found in, you know, many, many traditions that go back 1000s and 1000s of years. And when something is seen in that many domains, it makes sense that one might pay credence to it, right, you know. And so, so So are you saying that it’s really the choice of unattached burden is one kind of attached to the fact that you talk about burdens in IFS, but two, like, very literally, it is the same. You’re just trying to shift the language a little bit to make it less scary.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 33:35

Well, yeah. I mean, when we unburden parts, they literally can tell you what they are. They tell you there’s this burning thing in my chest, or this weight on my shoulders or and then you take it out and it’s this little burning thing. Then send it out of the system. Yeah, these are these little burning things that aren’t attached to any part and just in there, floating around. So

Dr. Sandy Newes 34:07

I’m curious what your thoughts are about how they got there. Like, is it all trauma related? Like, the idea about di D, is it accidental? Could you be somewhere where they attach

Dr. Dick Schwartz 34:16

to you? Sort of all those so when you ask them, they’ll basically say, when you were out of your body, they got in South was out. So there you find them a lot in people who been abused severely or have a lot of operations, or have done a lot of psychedelics, things like that, all those kind of things that take you out of your body, they can’t penetrate self energy, so they wait around. And as soon as you’re not then they have an opening.

Dr. Sandy Newes 34:57

I have heard in some other types of circle. Goals like that. They that they feed on stress that when, and that would be if yourself, I would to use IFS language, if yourself is not strong. So if you’re caught up in stress, they kind of like grab hold and feed on that.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 35:12

If you’re blended with certain parts that do take you out of your body a bit, which, you know, there are many of those, then they have an opening. Yeah. Important thing to know is that they have no power if you’re not afraid of them. So if you, if I’m working with you, and we find one of these, and you’re terrified of it, it has a lot of power, and get all the scared parts into a waiting room and let you be with it. Suddenly you’re saying, No, I’m not afraid of it anymore, trying to hit me, but it has no power now, can’t and so I say, okay, then just let it know it can’t stay. It doesn’t belong here. We’re going to send it to where we transform. And I’d have you just bring in the light to shine on it and just send it out

Dr. Sandy Newes 36:04

so that piece, bring it to the light that is also found in many spiritual traditions. It’s also found in kind of New Age philosophy, like you know, how we, you know light workers versus battling the light in the dark. And so I’m just curious, kind of where that comes from. For you, is that part of your own experience, part of your own belief system? No, not a bit. It’s super simple, like you did a demo with me. It was super helpful, and it felt so simple. I

Dr. Dick Schwartz 36:30

was like, Cool. We’ll just bring it to the light, like I could do that. Well, it comes from trial and error, really. Because when we first learned about burdens, then parts carried them, I would say, Okay, well, can the part take it out of its body? And they could, and then we didn’t know what to do with them, because we didn’t want to build up some kind of toxic waste dump inside of people. So what should we do with this? And at the time, there was a woman named Mitchie Rose who was studying shamanism, and said, in shamanism, they offer the elements, so light, water, fire, wind, earth, anything else. So So we started with light, but there were some parts that didn’t want to give it up to the light. They wanted something else. So then we offered the other options. And now parts just pick which one they want to do, and then they set up a fire, and we put it in the fire and let the fire take it. So everything with this thing has really just been trial and error, so I’m just following the data, even though it takes me way outside the paradigm. It certainly

Dr. Sandy Newes 37:33

is outside of the paradigm. But what’s super interesting about that for me is that is directly in the paradigm I studied with mela DOMA so May, and now I study with cater Brown, and so does sign me, my business partner, doing rites of passage work and elemental ceremony and ritual. And that whole tradition is about, you know, the use of elementals, the energetics of the elementals to both heal and to transform and to clear, but also to bring in so you know your work, one of the things I value so much about it is you’re you’re bridging these gaps in a scientific, methodological, evidence based way, and it’s offering us some really tangible tools to be able to work with what has previously been thought of as just esoteric phenomena,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 38:21

totally and the same thing with what we call guides that it turns out, I mean, what’s been very humbling to me is that it’s been made very clear to me that this model didn’t come out of My little brain. The guides have loaned it to me to bring to the world, and that was a big relief when I learned that. And as I explored all that, and again, explored it, simply because, as I’m working with clients, and they do some big unburdenings, they’ll start saying something like, I’m hearing this voice, and it’s telling things about me and how I should, you know, what, how I should think about myself, or what I might want to do in my life, and and I would have them focus on that as a part, at some point, it would say, No, it’s not a part that It’s something else, and it’s here to help, and sort of the opposite of the UVs, it’s here to to help, not only you, but also humanity. And so as I increasingly ran into that phenomena, I just got more and more interested and began trading sessions with a woman who channels my guys, which, oh, nice. Been incredibly valuable. And so I’ve come to really believe that this phenomenon is true as well. It’s ironic that basically, ours is the only culture that doesn’t know about this or does. And believe it,

Dr. Sandy Newes 40:00

well, that’s the thing, right? I mean, it’s like, you know, Christianity would call it Jesus and God, or the Holy Spirit, or however we’re going to call it. And, you know, not to go too far down that rabbit hole, but, you know, it’s possible that it’s all the same thing like that. It’s ultimately the same phenomena being understood in different ways. At least, that’s, I’m certainly open to that. And

Dr. Dick Schwartz 40:21

will say about that is they’ll come in the form that you listen to Christians that come as Jesus, for other religions that come in other forms. They just want to be heard. Yeah,

Dr. Sandy Newes 40:35

well, and so you mentioned that you kind of almost had a download with this. Would you say that came over many years. Would you say that came kind of one day, like, I just wonder, how you know, how much are they interested or willing to share?

Dr. Dick Schwartz 40:50

They’ve been kind to me. So they, they gave me one piece at a time in ways that, because I, you know, I came into this. I come from a hugely scientific family. Three of my brothers and my father were medical scientists, and so I think that’s partly why they picked me, because I had this huge skeptical part, and I could be more easily believed. And so they would just kind of reveal things to me, one, one piece at a time, that that I could actually digest. And so it took a while. Yeah,

Dr. Sandy Newes 41:35

I mean, that is just so interesting. And I I just am deeply honored that you’re willing to share about that, because that’s so important, because, like, you know, our culture and psychedelics, one of the things I think is just fascinating about really, if we’re going to call this a cultural movement, which I believe it to be, is that it’s being driven by science and it and awesome, and it needs to Be, and it should. I was trained as a clinical researcher, like how to do psychotherapy outcome researcher, and to be skeptical and to rule out all alternative and rival hypothesis. So I share that as well. Well, also, I call myself a both a skeptic and a believer, like, you know, I’ll be open to it, and I’ll also question it, and still do it every step of the way. And so, you know, here are you in a position of influence, obviously, really intelligent and well trained, and now you’re in a position of influence. And to, you know, the willingness to speak openly about that is a real gift for all of us, really. Thank you for that.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 42:39

Welcome. I mean, that wasn’t always the case. And I had ambitions of trying to revolutionize psychiatry and so on and academic

Dr. Sandy Newes 42:48

but, but you are. You’re doing it,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 42:53

not the hardcore at all. Um, I’m, you know. So I went grassroots, and I waited until the movement had grown to the point where it couldn’t be reversed by coming out about some of these things, right? Yeah. And also, I asked my guides if I should be talking about and they said, Hell yes, you should be talking about it. So I’m nothing, if not a slave to my guides.

Dr. Sandy Newes 43:21

Well, and that’s honestly been some of my experience as well, that it’s really important for us all to be speaking this language. And really the linkage between being able to language spiritual phenomena, if we’re going to call it that, we can call it shamanic phenomena. We can call it whatever we want. But if we’re but bridging that with the science may ultimately be really, that it’s not either or, that it’s always been both and, and, you know, your model gives us some language and some tools to be able to work with that really, no matter what your belief system is, like it, it doesn’t really, it gives us an opportunity to not have your belief system matter

Dr. Dick Schwartz 44:04

exactly, and that’s I’m careful to not impose any of this on students, so that you can be an atheist and go to the training and come out knowing very well how to do IFS and you don’t have to believe any of

Dr. Sandy Newes 44:19

this. So yeah. So for somebody who might, you know, so, okay, so then I have a question, sort of you talked about, how to, how we determine, you know, the unattached burdens, basically, they are truth tellers. Um, they don’t seem to have any protective elements. No matter how hard you dig. Um, they really seem to have a destructive force without, again, without that protective piece, and they seem to be responsive to being removed using elemental kind of ritual or elemental language, whether that be light or fire or water or air, mineral or.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 44:59

Well, they’re not responsive in the sense that they’re kicking and screaming and they’re terrified to leave choice about it. Okay, all right, compassionate way.

Dr. Sandy Newes 45:12

So we identify them by based on those kind of criteria, and any other criteria that would be helpful for people to kind of, if they’re sort of being if they’re sitting, they’re sitting there working with the client, like, like, here’s the scenario. They’re working with a client, it’s either in a training retreat, like the kind that you do, that we do, or they’re working with a client, like an actual psychotherapy client, and they see something that they wonder, if this is this, the criteria that they might use Are you said they tell the truth. They don’t have a particular element.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 45:46

You know, start out assuming it’s a part, and interview it like it’s a part, if it, you know, I would spend hours part a thing. Would just keep saying, No, you don’t get it. There’s nothing good about me and and so, yeah, the danger in talking about it is that people assume certain parts are these things, and will try to send

Dr. Sandy Newes 46:13

them out, I see. And then they become an exile,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 46:16

yeah, and then they’ll exile them.

Dr. Sandy Newes 46:20

Okay, that seems that’s really important. I totally get that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 46:24

so you really want to be sure it is one of these things, and the more you do it with them, the more quick, quicker you can realize that it’s not a part,

Dr. Sandy Newes 46:35

okay? And so, so the do, so what I hear there is to people new to this work, assume it’s a part first, when in doubt, assume it’s a part and work with it as if it were a part of maybe a firefighter or something else that had a more destructive type tendency, and work with it in that way. First, okay, and then how about differentiating guides from parts. But how is that a useful distinction? Is it important? Does that naturally emerge for people, for yourself? Has that naturally emerged? Is it something we should be wondering about

Dr. Dick Schwartz 47:13

it? It is useful in the sense that it’s useful to know how to call on them and how to to listen to them and things like that. So how to distinguish them again? I have a teacher that says, just ask. If you ask them if they’re apart, they’ll say, No, not exactly. I’m something else. And again, they’re just always valuable. They’re just always helpful.

Dr. Sandy Newes 47:57

So maybe what I’m hearing you say at a basic level, then tell me if I’ve got this right. Is basic level. Again, means somebody who’s doing psychedelic work that is not fully IFS trained, but is witnessing this phenomena. Because really, I think we share the goal of wanting clients, trainees, practitioners, participants of all sorts, to not be traumatized by the emergence of these kinds of phenomena, as well as recognizing that with psychedelics, we might, we probably are. That’s my experience opening up more, yeah, so it’s really important that we hold the space with the eight C’s, right? I mean, am I? I’m putting words in your mouth now, I don’t mean to just get that out there. I can’t

Dr. Dick Schwartz 48:40

overstate the importance of you the facilitator, keeping the room full of self energy while people are in Oh, I love that. And that can be challenging, if it’s a, you know, MDMA trip or a psilocybin trip that’s going on for four hours, takes a certain amount of concentration and so another reason why I prefer ketamine, ketamine, yeah, right.

Dr. Sandy Newes 49:08

I mean, you know, sometimes I’ll do three sessions in a row, and mostly IV with clients. So I’m in the room for, you know, six hours, and under the influence with people for four plus. So it certainly involves a lot of really me connecting to myself right in order to be able to be in there, and there’s a difference, like, if I’m not the client has a different experience if I’m distracted,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 49:30

absolutely stupid. No, that’s totally true, and I don’t think there’s enough emphasis in the psychedelics world on the presence of the facilitator, and not only to protect from these UBS, but just the more self energies in the room, the more the more protectors sense the safety of it, and the more the exiles feel invited you. Mm, hmm, well,

Dr. Sandy Newes 50:01

and that’s interesting, because it brings the question then about, you know, can it mean therapy versus cap, right, or just doing the medicine in a group versus doing it in a well held container? I mean, we we prioritize the container above the medicine. We prioritize the process. The medicine is a tool, but there’s a prevailing view out there in the world that it’s just about the medicine. So I’m just curious what your thoughts are about that and how that might all relate. I

Dr. Dick Schwartz 50:33

totally agree, and you know, as much as I like Michael Paul and he did a big disservice that way, because he emphasized how the medicine is the healing agent, and it can be, but it’s, it’s like you said, it’s a tool that opens up a lot of things, and it can also cause a lot of damage if people don’t know if they’re not in a good setting, or if they Don’t know what to have, what to do. Like another reason, I think the IFS perspective is valuable, because I’ve heard from people who went to practitioners who, when they had a panic attack, for example, thought it was a panic attack and got scared themselves and tried to pull them out of it, and just escalated. And if instead, the practitioner thought, Oh, here’s one of these really scared exiles that’s come in, see if it’ll separate a little bit so the client can help it. It’s a great opportunity to do a big piece of healing, but if you say, oh my god, they’re having a panic attack, it’s going to go south. So no,

Dr. Sandy Newes 51:49

for sure, I have a client that every single session I’ve been working with this person for a while. They started off doing an infusion series, and now they come in about every four to five weeks for boosters, and we see each other in between, no matter how often we’ve done it at some point during the ketamine session, and it’s sometimes it’s even at the end, like it’s more often at the end now, which is interesting to me, they do have some kind of panic attack. They turn it off. I can’t handle it. This is horrible. And I’ve begun to track like it’s a different voice, it’s a different demeanor. And so we’re just like, Oh, hi. You know, welcome. You know, we see you, we witness you, to use your language. We see that you’re here. And I wonder, if we can, is it okay to continue?

Dr. Dick Schwartz 52:28

Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m talking about, right? So,

Dr. Sandy Newes 52:35

well, you know, just as we’re kind of, you know, winding up our time together, just any other really things that you’d like to put out into the field, suggestions for practitioners in particular things that you’ve mentioned are the importance of the container, the importance of holding yourself, the importance of assuming it’s a part and working out as such. Before, anything else you’ve talked about making sure that you have protection, or that you have permission from the protectors to be able to move forward. Other things that you might really suggest specifically do, like, how can we do great, you know, psychedelic work. But also, how can we really be available and step, we call it stepping into kind of a calm authority when we see something that might be outside of our frame of reference, which we are probably are going to

Dr. Dick Schwartz 53:30

definitely will. And the calm authority is what I call self, one of the C words, and then for the authority you have confidence and courage and so if you stay in self, you really won’t be intimidated by anything. That’s really key, because, as you say, a lot of strange things start to happen.

Dr. Sandy Newes 54:00

They do. And the longer you’re in it, you know, the more we’re going to see it. And people in the underground and people in the sacred plant medicine communities have more training, you know, and maybe not, maybe, maybe not. And you know, indigenous cultures have training and perspective on how to deal with this. And you know, we’ve got people like, you know, dr, Joe tafour and Belinda. I’ve forgotten her last name, but you know, she comes. She’s an indigenous person with charcuna Institute. Have you know, begun to raise the alarm like we need to. We need to be mindful of this. We need to be careful of this. We need to welcome it, but also work with it. And it sounds like you’re adding your voice to that as well.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 54:39

Very much in the training you need isn’t to know all the different possible phenomena that you’re gonna encounter, and the training is to know how, when something does happen that’s unexpected, how to go to the part of you that gets startled, yeah, relax and trust you to stay and. And that’s, you know, that’s a lot of what we train therapists to do.

Dr. Sandy Newes 55:03

I love that great. Well, anything else that you’d like to share before we finish today,

Dr. Dick Schwartz 55:11

um, let me think, I think we covered pretty well the territory. Uh, I really appreciate your interest in what you’re doing and incorporating it. And I’m hoping, as I think you are now, that iOS can be one of the, at least one of the several main maps to the psychedelic territory. And we’re making progress in that direction. We got collaborations going with maps and other places. So, yeah,

Dr. Sandy Newes 55:42

I’m on board. So I think it gives us the most tangible, straightforward, non pathologizing and non scary way to talk about whatever phenomenon might emerge. And you know that emphasis for practitioners and just maintaining their strong self is really important. So I really appreciate you, and I appreciate your time today, and I appreciate your contribution so and thank you so much for sharing and on this personal level with me. Thank you.

Dr. Dick Schwartz 56:15

Thank you, Sandy. It’s always a pleasure.

Dr. Signi Goldman 56:21

Thanks for joining us today for this fascinating conversation. Stay tuned for our next episode with Dr Ron Siegel, Harvard University, professor and author of multiple books on mindfulness, for another really great conversation, another mind bending exploration in the implications of psychedelic work and mental health. See you then.

Outro 56:52

Thanks for listening to Living Medicine. We’ll see you again next time, be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.