Clinical Innovation in KAP: Changing the Story, Depathologizing Suffering, & Moving Beyond the DSM

Couples may encounter challenges when trying to resolve persistent issues around communication, trust, or emotional pain. Traditional talk therapy sometimes falls short when couples try to break through entrenched narratives and create meaningful change. How can therapists help partners reach deeper understanding and healing in a safe, transformative way?

According to psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist and couples retreat facilitator Jayne Gumpel, ketamine can act as a portal to emotional clarity and reconnection. Having facilitated both individual and group ketamine sessions, Jayne emphasizes the importance of preparation, intention setting, and integration. This medicine quiets the brain’s default mode of thinking, helping clients detach from rigid meaning-making and approach difficult emotions with compassion. Jayne also integrates poetry into her clinical practice to help clients reframe their stories and deepen relational insight.

In this week’s episode of Living Medicine, Dr. Sandy Newes sits down with Jayne Gumpel, LCSW, Founder and Lead Facilitator of Relationship Resources, to discuss psychedelic-assisted couples therapy. Jayne shares her philosophy for cultivating joy, her innovative retreat approaches, and her perspective on consciousness. 

This episode is brought to you by the Living Medicine Institute.

LMI is a training, resource, and membership program educating providers about the legal and safe use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.

To learn more or participate, visit https://livingmedicineinstitute.com.

Intro 0:03

Welcome to the Living Medicine podcast, where we talk about ethical medical use of psychedelic psychotherapy, teaching skills, examining the issues and interviewing interesting people. Now let’s start today’s show.

Dr. Sandy Newes 0:18

So Hello everyone. Welcome to this episode of Living Medicine. I am Dr. Sandy Newes I’m a co founder of Living Medicine Institute, which is a business providing content, resources and trainings for clinical and medical professionals in the psychedelic assisted psychotherapy space, with the specialization in ketamine and ketamine assisted psychotherapy specifically, and I am excited to be here with Jayne Gumpel. I know Jayne as an innovator in the space, as a, you know, senior clinician in the space, as a wise woman who mixes kind of good clinical services with poetry. And I see that in her work. I know her. I know of her as a retreat leader, and also somebody who has expertise in couples work. So, you know, people are excited about that, and we’ll get to that, but, but, yeah, I want to just kind of acknowledge that I’ve seen Jayne’s poetry on Big 10 ketamine, which you are one of the co founders of that, correct, right?

Jayne Gumpel 1:20

I’m a co I’m a facilitator. Carl Spitzer is the only founder, really, but I’m one of the principals, right? So we gather together and support Carl, really good. Well, I

Dr. Sandy Newes 1:32

love that. And for those who don’t know, big tech, ketamine is a is a community space where people come together and talk about issues related to ketamine. And there’s lots of different offerings in there, if you’re interested in that. So, so thank you, Jayne, thank you so much. I’ve been following your work, really, since I dropped into the ketamine space. And you know, kind of I started doing this work in 2019 and I began to hear about your retreats and your trainings and things from others. So I’m really excited to have you here. So anything else you want to add in terms of by way of introduction?

Jayne Gumpel 2:06

No, I’m just thank you for inviting me. I’m happy to be here. This is work that I love, that loves me back. I mean, how great is that? So I appreciate it. Great the invitation. Yeah,

Dr. Sandy Newes 2:17

well, you are welcome. So you know, so that you know you say that work moves me, and you know that I forget what you said. It was quite eloquent, but moves me, moves me back, but

Jayne Gumpel 2:28

loves Me, Loves me back. There you go. I mean, right, how great is it to have work that I just feel inspired by and grow through every all the time, every day. I love it. Yeah, good. Yeah. I love that.

Dr. Sandy Newes 2:42

So, so that kind of leads to the first question about, you know, everybody’s got their journey, right? And we don’t need all the ins and outs, but, but what moved you into the psychedelic medicine space, and what kind of keeps you committed to that space?

Jayne Gumpel 2:55

Yeah? Well, that’s a beautiful question. I don’t know how far back to go,

Dr. Sandy Newes 3:00

open ended, like however you want it far back to go, you know? Well,

Jayne Gumpel 3:05

I would say in the 70s, when I was riding bareback in the Andes, you know, eating mushrooms out of cowplops, I’m thinking to myself, this should be in the water system. You know, it was just such a beautiful experience. Or several experiences when I lived in Columbia, South America, and, you know, was just exposed to that space of consciousness that was so beautiful in my youth. So I think that was always in the back of my mind. And then also, you know, experiencing LSD as a young woman and what that felt like, but really no way to integrate it. So it always felt sort of separate, you know, from my life, even though it opened my eyes to a lot of things, yeah, you know, during the Vietnam War. So, but bring me. Bring me to now. And I think what really got me involved with ketamine is in my couples practice, and I had a couple reach out to me that I had been working with on and off for 10 years, and they were really stuck. And I knew the stuck place they were in. He made a story about something. She made up a story about something. The story was not in alignment. They didn’t trust each other. She didn’t feel trusted. He didn’t trust her. Yeah, it was a lot of jealousy. I mean, I’m narrowing it down, right, but yeah, and we did a lot of beautiful work over 10 years on and off, but we never really got to the place where that issue resolved. Not Was it not forgiven, but it wasn’t resolved. It kind of hung there like a shingle stuck to a roof, you know? And they called me and they asked me if I would facilitate a psilocybin session with them. Oh, interesting. I said, I can’t do that. It’s not legal, right? But I would be happy to work with you with ketamine. I’ve not really. Worked with ketamine before with a couple, but I’m learning about it at the Woodstock Therapy Center, and I know a little something, something about it. So I just want to be transparent. I don’t have any experience working with couples, but I know you. And they were like, sign me up before I could even finish talking to them about it. So they rented a little place up here in Woodstock, and we did a prep session, or a couple of prep sessions, and then I met with them up here, and I have to tell you, it was like a little miracle. I couldn’t believe it. What happened in the session with you know, I think they each took 300 milligrams sublingual. This was like five years ago, right?

Dr. Sandy Newes 5:45

So, so you both of them in the same room? Oh,

Jayne Gumpel 5:48

yes, yes, yes, yes, they both came in together. All my work with them was always together as a couple, right? And we had a lot of respect and high regard for each other. I just love them as human beings, both of them, they’re, they’re just wonderful, very successful human beings on so many levels, right? No, no deep, no pathology there. You know, just this, this narrative. You know that we all, we all have our narratives, this narrative that they got stuck in. So we did the prep sessions. I explained to them what ketamine was to the best of my ability, and what to expect, and we worked on what their intentions could be. And, you know, I gave them all the you know, you’re gonna use eye shades, and the chairs recline, and we’re gonna use sublingual lazu under the tongue, the swishing, and then a consent we went through the whole consent process, which I have an experiential way of working with consent, which I can share another time. Yeah, it just really gets us all dropped into what not having consent means, just to be able to talk about that and then to sign the consent form, so it doesn’t feel like an academic process. No, I love then, yeah. And then referral to my colleague who was able to write the RX, right? And MD, yeah. And they, so they went through the medical interview, yeah, which I believe I was present for in those days, I would go to the medical interview

Dr. Sandy Newes 7:25

all the time in the world.

Jayne Gumpel 7:26

I don’t do that anymore,

Dr. Sandy Newes 7:28

but learning experience. I mean, it was like

Jayne Gumpel 7:32

the Wild Wild West, right, five years ago, right? Working with couples, it’s still very much a frontier, right? It’s still very sure, yeah, but so, so they came in, and, of course, they know me, so these are people who have a lot of trust in me. So that helps, yeah? And I have a beautiful playlist. And, you know, I got them together and we they did the swishing, and I did this beautiful meditation with them that I wrote on dropping into your safe space, first for yourself, and then welcoming your partner into your safe space. I love that. And then they’re swishing and they, you know, put the eye shades on, and they had their own individual journeys. That’s sort of the process that I use. I don’t, you do a psycholytic in this instance, I didn’t, I have in the in the, you know, after that, I’ve done a lot of psycholytic work with couples that, and I can talk about that too, but this was a psychedelic experience, and so I told them that I was not going to tinker with their internal experience, that it was inner, guided, in, directed, right? And that I would wait at least a half hour unless they raised their hand and they wanted to, obviously, talk or take their eye shades off, but neither one of them did. They wanted they were in their experience, and I could see that a lot of emotions were coming up for both of them. After about 45 minutes to an hour, they come, you know, they come out of the medicine. I mean, you know, they’re still in it, but they’re able to look at each other, and they’re gazing at each other, and they’re crying both,

Dr. Sandy Newes 9:05

oh, that’s like the first thing that emerged, in terms of first

Jayne Gumpel 9:09

thing that emerged, oh, and he’s amazing to her. Oh, my God. It was, it was and I was crying because it was just, you know, when you you know, you have those moments when you know deep healing is happening like right before your eyes. Yeah, it doesn’t always happen that way, obviously, but this was an example of that. And so they’re holding each other, and he’s give they’re gazing at each other, and he says to her, I am so so sorry. Oh, so sorry. Yeah, she’s looking at him, and she’s saying, you know, I’m here, I’m here, I’m here, I’m here, you can you can trust me. And so they held each other, and then they sat up, yeah, and I the the arrangement that we made in the prep session. Was they would each share their direct experience, yeah, so there’d be a sender or a sharer and a receiver, the person who is the noble listener, the person who receives the experience without interrupting, right, but just really leaning in with curiosity. And so he tells her in no uncertain terms, right? I made a terrible mistake. I see something about myself right now that I couldn’t let myself see then. And he shared with her the story that he made up about an incident, about an experience that they had together, that involved another person. And he said, I can see that I had a homophobic reaction. I could see that this was really about me and not about you. And he tuned into his Latino, sort of macho background and also his father’s abuse, and he realized that he made up the story that was causing this huge rupture in their relationship, and she was able to receive it with such love and compassion that it actually completely dissolved. That power struggle issue between the two of okay,

Dr. Sandy Newes 11:25

so I have a really practical question. First, a short like, how long was the session? Because that’s always a question that people ask with, with Yes, so ketamine,

Jayne Gumpel 11:34

with ketamine, it lasts. Well, that particular session lasted about two and a half hours. So the medicine 15 minutes when they arrived, 15 minutes to swish, yeah, then they spit. They each took 300 milligrams, sublingual, yeah, swishing for 15 minutes. Both people spit, yeah, lay down for 45 minutes when they wanted to really talk and hold each other, then sit up and share their direct experience with each other. Okay? And then, and

Dr. Sandy Newes 12:09

in that 45 minutes, sorry, just, just so we, we’re all clear, because people ask us this question in our training program all the time, how would we do cover so I want to get, I’m going to move into, what do you think it was about the ketamine that was helpful in what you did or didn’t do, too? But what I want to get clear on is we got the swishing. We got 15 minutes of preparation and meditation. We got 15 minutes of swishing. Then you said 45 minutes where they laid quietly together and talked. And were they talking much? And were you interacting with them in that phase, they

Jayne Gumpel 12:40

were silent for 45 minutes, okay, about 35 to 45 minutes. They were both silent in their own, on their own journey, in their language together, right in recline chairs so they were not on a mat. They were in chairs that recline, right, yeah,

Dr. Sandy Newes 12:59

so comfortable chilling. What I know from when we do groups is people are very aware of each other, while also in their internal process. So it’s like your journey, but you have awareness. I don’t know if that fits, yes, but and then they gradually come out, and then this beautiful

Jayne Gumpel 13:15

thing emerges, yes, yes. And then they were able to hold hands and embrace and, you know, it was beautiful. I mean, that is no talking for a while.

Dr. Sandy Newes 13:28

Yeah, you’re not interacting with them during that time. There no quietly, no

Dr. Sandy Newes 13:31

okay, yeah. So what do you

Dr. Sandy Newes 13:35

think you did that helped with that? I mean, you’ve mentioned repeatedly that you have a relationship with them, and they trusted you. So we’re gonna assume, you know, that’s a set and setting variable, like you already had a relationship. You’d already done all preparation, like you all came in with mutual trust and respect. So noted that’s important, yes, in terms of the way that you set it up, and then the academy in itself, because that sounds like that was your first experience. So I imagine

Jayne Gumpel 13:59

you’re like, well, the couple was my first experience with a couple, right? I imagine you were like, ooh,

Dr. Sandy Newes 14:03

so what are your thoughts? What was it that led to that? And then, how has that fed into your work moving forward?

Jayne Gumpel 14:11

Well, what led to it was they asked me, right, just so they wanted, and I said yes to the ketamine. Also, what really helped was the provider who gave the prescription is a colleague and a friend. So we were able to communicate together. That helped. And I think, you know, the ketamine is a portal, right? It’s it’s not so much. It’s not the ketamine itself. It’s the room that the doorway opens up to and I tell people that, you know, it’s, it’s just one spoke on the wheel. Really, the space that you’re in that allows you to see the story. So it’s all about meaning making, yeah. So for them it dropped, it dropped their default mode network, more so in him than her. Yeah. And. Mean, her lament was, oh my god, you don’t trust me, and I’m so I’m so monogamous, and I so love you, and I so want you to trust me, but then she would dress really provocatively, yeah, and go out to the world as a passive aggressive response to it. But never, really, never cheated on him, but her. So. So his default mode network Senate relaxed, and he was actually able to see something that his mind did not want to let him see. Yeah, all these years, right? So the Kelly, beautiful way to stay the enemy, right? Yeah, the gift of the ketamine is it really lets us approach the meaning making of the trauma in a more detached way, but also in a way that brings in some compassion. You know, like my objective reality is not necessarily the truth of things. Yeah, you know, my subjective reality is informed by all sorts of things that I’m unaware of, like my fear of maybe I’m bisexual, or maybe I’m this, or maybe I’m that, right? So the ketamine definitely has a role to play in that, right? Yeah, I

Dr. Sandy Newes 16:18

love that. It as a portal. In fact, I actually get asked that by people a lot about, like, plant medicines, and that’s actually one of the things I say. I’m curious if you think that that could be a whole another conversation. But I say, you know me, I’m like, you know plant medicine, depending on your belief, is you may or may not be dealing with the whole separate energy of the actual plant. But ketamine is not that. Ketamine is a portal. It may lead you to similar places. But the ketamine is not that it’s an opening, it’s a tool. It’s an opening that allows for things to emerge and shift more easily.

Jayne Gumpel 16:52

So, yeah, beautiful, beautiful, yeah. I mean, if you think about it, it’s like it drops, it drops the gates, you know, drops the structure that’s built for good reason around things were too traumatic for you to be able to metabolize fully, so you just make up a story about it that keeps you from it. Yeah, you don’t know you’re doing that necessarily, right? So the ketamine kind of challenges meaning making helps you challenge meaning making, kind of like, EMDR, yeah, you know, brings a different right, different

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